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✽ seventeen cats in a trench-coat ([personal profile] rhodanum) wrote2018-12-16 04:33 pm

[meta] » of fandoms and 'antis'

As someone who's been involved with fandoms for twenty years now, since the pre-LJ era, one of the most baffling and actively enraging developments in recent times has been the sharp rise of content-policing from within fandom itself, rather than something caused by the intervention of an outside entity (as was the case with the fundamentalist Christian group whose caterwauling kicked off Strikethrough). I've read and written reams of social analysis when it comes to the whole 'anti' phenomenon, caused by their actions that very much took the shape of actively coordinated campaigns against some of the content that I enjoy in fandom (chiefly non-con fic and incest ships). 

Kickstarted by my bitter disappointment in running into an old friend on here and seeing them turned into another 'how dare you engage in rape/incest/abuse apologism!' zealot, here are a series of comments I left on Reddit, a while ago, explaining the social roots behind the whole anti phenomenon when someone brought up the thing in r/HobbyDrama, explaining exactly how, in ten short years, fandom went from YKINMK to.... this complete shitshow we've got on our hands now. 

What even led to the appearance of the whole 'anti' thing? Several factors: 

  • social justice -- the most bastardized form of it, present on Tumblr. What happens when 
    • you're got a mass of young people who have no clue where to direct the anger they feel at a world perceived as wholly unfair and 
    • a system which teaches them that the most oppressed person in a given situation is the one who should be listened to and always have the final word? 

The answer is weaponized victimhood or malicious self-victimization, whichever of the terms you like best. This is why a metric fuckton of SJ-based arguments on Tumblr just devolve into a complete morass of 'you should listen to me, I'm X and have been through Y', 'no, you should listen to ME, I'm X and Z and have been through Y!' The recent apotheosis has been that, when two people who have gone through the same thing (say, two survivors of rape) meet and disagree over the merit of nonconsent kinks and catering to them through the safety of fictional content, the person against content-elimination will invariably get told that they're not a 'real survivor' or that they 'secretly enjoyed it.' How can someone be so utterly heinous as to say something like that? Through the wonders of malicious self-victimization -- the anti knows that they have to win the argument, at all costs and they do this by positing themselves as the most unequivocally 'harmed' party in the conversation and the only 'real and proper' survivor. Because that, in their own filter-bubble, is what gives them the most social capital and the most support in the argument. It doesn't matter who and what has to be trampled underfoot -- all that matters is that the anti 'wins' the argument.

  • bastardized social justice bleeding into fandoms -- take all of the above wankery and apply it to transformative fandoms. 

When I was growing up, the appeal of transformative fandom was specifically the 'anything goes' aspect. You could write whatever fucked-up nonsense your hindbrain chose to come up with and aside for a few people wrinkling their noses at you, you'd largely be fine, because it was a widely understood fact that writing about something had zero relation on whether or not you'd go and do it IRL. Hardly anyone thought a darkfic writer to be an actual rapist or a serial-killer or, as is the most prevalent accusation right now, a pedophile. I remember winning a darkfic-writing contest as a young teen by writing about someone murdering Admiral Motti of Star Wars fame mid-intercourse. With a spoon (it was much gorier than it initially sounds). Back then (over 15 years now) I wasn't accused of 'fetishizing abuse', I wasn't interrogated on my fictional tastes and how they related to my personal morality. All of that came gradually, in the last ten years -- it started in fannish spaces on LiveJournal and gained speed on Tumblr, to the point where, as early as 2015, I was getting screeched-at if I defended darkfics ('she just wants people to let her write her gross rape-fic in peace, how dare she?!') What happened was that fictional harm (and the personal discomfort it could engender in someone consuming the content) was 100% equated to real harm. Thus, me writing a fic with sexual violence in it was, for antis, the moral equivalent of being exactly like whatever individual abused them.

  • (induced) hyper-fragility -- the logical end of what I was talking about above. 

Current fandom consensus is that you're supposed to tag and warn the shit out of your content, if it contains anything that could be objectionable, so people who don't want to deal with that can just avoid it or vamoose it entirely via blacklisting. How does that square with antis howling even louder than before against 'bad content?' Simple. They don't want tools to curate their own fandom experience -- you could spoon-feed them everything and they'd still scream. Their goal is the total elimination of whatever content they've fixated on (age-gap ships, incest ships, content with sexual violence, BDSM content, etc) because even the mere knowledge that this content exists (and is being actively and freely enjoyed by 'gross people') is enough to put them into a bona-fide emotional meltdown. We've got what looks like an entire generation that effectively brainwashed itself into thinking that it is so hurt and so fragile that it needs everyone else to mindlessly do whatever is demanded of them, for the protection of this particular group. For example, I have a number of ships and tropes that make me go into a mental-health tailspin. And yet, even as a teenager, I always acknowledged that my personal discomfort and personal hangups gave me zero right to demand that others stop producing said content. That was just the fannish social environment I was raised in, which again makes me think that this is largely a generational thing -- I've yet to see anyone 30 or older holding the views of 'antis'. 

Nota Bene: Not everyone is actually sincere about something sending them into a meltdown. Among antis, there's a hard core of ruthless social manipulators, usually older than the predominantly teenage antis, who are cynically using the 'movement' for their own gratification and power-plays (they're basically Tumblr fandom's toxic, cult-gathering BNFs).

  • filter-bubbles -- I've mentioned them before, but they're responsible for much in the way of people's ideas and 'discourse' on Tumblr becoming more and more extreme and detached from reality. 

In the case of antis, they specifically congregate in their own tags and have formed their own social community, where it's a shunning offense to express even a modicum of agreement with any ideas that run counter to anti thought. Hell, I've seen people being made-an-example-of purely because they remained friends with individuals who did not subscribe to anti views. The goal is to isolate the (usually young and inexperienced) individuals and make them socially and  emotionally dependent on the anti community, to the point where they don't dare question anything, for fear of ostracism or outright targeted harassment. This combines nastily with the wider Tumblr social environment's habit of locking people in a death-spiral of more and more extreme versions of initially sensible ideas. 

A concrete example -- sensible, rational posts such as those warning teenagers not to be too forthcoming on the Internet with personal information, on account of potential predators had their essence passed down into other posts... that over the years got more and more warped, to the point where we now have people shrieking that any adult having any interaction with a teenager on the Internet is a predator and an active danger to kids. Also, that adults who provide science-based, fact-based sex-ed to teens from ass-backwards states or societies are now doing it to 'groom' said teens. Progressives talking identically to US American religious fundies? It's more common than you'd think! Another example: posts warning teenage girls of potentially predatory older men over the years got warped into this fucking gem: '[college] freshmen, don't date seniors! You're still a baby-adult and they're targeting you because they're abusive and want someone to easily manipulate!' Yes, I had to read the words 'baby-adult' with my own two eyes and now you have to as well.

  • goddamn ship-wars -- what I said above, about people cynically using the whole 'anti' thing to their advantage? This usually manifests in fandoms as people using SJ lingo in order to win ship-wars. 

In Ye Olde Fandom Days, ship-wars usually involved people calling each other 'idiots', 'cretins with no taste', etc, for not shipping the insulter's Precious Preferred Ship and supporting the rival one. On Tumblr, however, a lot of individuals wizened up to the fact that such insults were utterly passe and just bounced off their target. If they wanted to actually hurt someone (and do it in a Socially Acceptable Way), the best way to do it was to accuse the other person of supporting a variety of '-isms' / of engaging in oppressive behavior by liking the rival ship. The funniest thing? In Tumblr fannish spaces, largely dominated by women and other marginalized groups, such as LGBTQ+ people? We bought into their shit for a while, because we were earnestly trying not to do harm to others and were taught obsessively that if someone said we were harming them, we needed to listen and take their criticism on-board. That's how a ton of anti nonsense is, nowadays, being used as a front for ship-wars -- 'my ship is progressive and not-straight and interracial and healthy and supportive, your ship is [insert the opposite here... even when it doesn't correspond as a description for the ship!]' This is also why there's a veritable rat-race going on to 'problematize' even the most anodyne ship and fictional content, because that's the most surefire way to use it as a bludgeon against someone else.

The most chilling aspect of this whole thing is that this fuckery has bled out of fandom and affected people's real lives. And the reason for this is precisely the unholy mix of Extreme Tumblr SJ and fandom, one that puts people in a filter-bubble which teaches them that they are RIGHTEOUS in their goals and their methods and they mustn't question themselves or the legitimacy of their targets. The Righteous never question, the Righteous are always correct and if they're told someone is a Suppressive Person* Bad Person, then they must cut all ties with them, publicly denounce them and, if they continue in their Badness, punish them appropriately.

*Did I just compare Tumblr SJ to Scientology? Yeah, I did, sue me.

[personal profile] kaoriva 2018-12-16 06:30 pm (UTC)(link)
The worst thing is that with Tumblr's new censorship policy antis are celebrating that NSFW artists lost their blogs because "they were drawing child porn" aka their definition of aged up characters or adults with an age gap/teenagers closer in age. Now they have a new reason to feel superior even if Tumblr is flagging even SFW and not attacking the real problem. Glad I left that hellish site long ago, I just hope this type of culture doesn't goes to Pillowfort or here in Dreamwidth, but at least there and here we have the power to protect our content. But still, how bad.

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[personal profile] ikinkuriboh 2018-12-16 10:50 pm (UTC)(link)
My first taste of fanfiction and fandom was a place of escape where no judgment was to be had. Sure, there were the assholes who would tell you that they hated the content you made but it was just their singular opinion and taste. It was something more easily brushed off. I was really disappointed when I discovered there's some sort of "movement" of large groups of people dogpiling and attacking other fans over the dumbest shit. I kind of regret stepping out of my "just writing fic and not talking to anyone" bubble, to be a bit honest.

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[personal profile] harinezumiko 2018-12-17 10:35 am (UTC)(link)
The impression I get is that a particular subset of the current crop of fans don't care about the "transformative" aspect of fanworks. They care about canon giving to them what they feel is their right. If a show doesn't end how they want it to, they won't go away and write fix-it fic, they'll harass the creators. It's easier to make someone else do the work. And so they can't comprehend "what ifs" - what if these characters were older, what if their backgrounds were different, what if they met under different circumstances and so on. Which is the sort of stuff that was bread and butter to fans a decade ago.

I do also have to wonder if any of them have ever read a book. So was Agatha Christie a prolific murderer? Does Neil Gaiman think all children are the Antichrist? Does Stephen King really want to be hobbled? I recognise that where we have preexisting media there are expectations about the target audience for our works but we deal with that through age ratings and tags...

I find the whole debate exhausting. It's not a debate, it's a crusade, and they won't listen because their world view would crumble.

I'm seeing friends of mine reblogging anti rhetoric because yes, paedophiles are bad, we can all agree on that - but when you stretch that definition beyond its meaning it can hinder efforts to deal with the real problem.

Not to mention that the movement is very genuinely hurting a lot of people whose only issue was thinking "what if" about the wrong ship.

Sorry for the rant, I must have had this saved up for a while. Didn't much fancy posting it on tumblr after seeing what happened to one of my friends there. (Their own personal anti is doing better than ever, plenty of supporters still.)
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[personal profile] doomhamster 2018-12-17 06:40 pm (UTC)(link)
YES. THIS. There was a good while when I couldn't bring myself to participate in fandom at all beyond talking to 3-4 trusted friends, because the sight of so many of the writers and artists I'd followed reblogging things like "I used to agree with 'don't like don't read' until I realized it was all a cover for incest and pedophilia" made me so goddamn depressed.

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[personal profile] doomhamster 2018-12-17 06:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Sadly I HAVE seen 30+ people engage in anti-style rethoric. Maybe not as members of the mob, but I had several friends around my own age (38) whom I no longer talk to because their habit of ranting to me or in front of me on topics like "I'm a victim of X and I can't stand knowing that there are people out there who get off on imagining things like what happened to me, it shouldn't be allowed!" or "ugh, people are always talking about [Character] as a sub or saying he'd be into kinky shit, isn't that GROSS?!" (For bonus points, the latter one knew very well that the "kinky shit" she was referring to is something I personally enjoy both in fic and IRL...)
thisweekmod: (Default)

[personal profile] thisweekmod 2019-01-25 05:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Hello! May I link this post over at [community profile] thisweekmeta, a pan-fandom meta newsletter?
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[personal profile] yvannairie 2019-01-27 06:52 pm (UTC)(link)
👏
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[personal profile] independence1776 2019-01-27 08:08 pm (UTC)(link)
(Here via [community profile] thisweekmeta.)

I found this really interesting to read, partly because it maps onto my experience on Tumblr (seeing The Discourse cross my dash on occasion) but also because it doesn't match my experience pre-Tumblr. I've been active in Tolkien fandom for about fifteen years now and I 100% can say that censorship elements absolutely were coming into Tolkien fandom from within fandom. The difference was that the censors were largely conservative Christians who thought they owned the fandom because they believed that anything that didn't match with their morality was an affront to Tolkien himself and that they thought he'd agree with them and their actions. So it was focused on same-sex relationships, mostly, along with non-canon het ships, especially if they broke up Arwen/Aragorn.

Slash fans at that time built their own archives, mailing lists, communities, etc. to avoid the people trying to run them out of fandom. The second-wave Tolkien archives were a reaction against the censorship; it's specifically why the ones that still exist have stated policies that all types of relationships are welcome.

So the crop of antis within fandom are, to me, something that doesn't seem odd. That it's coming from-- or at least appearing to use the rhetoric of-- the other side of the political aisle is what's strange to me.
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[personal profile] muccamukk 2019-01-27 09:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I remember being told that the message board I was on at the time (TORC? TRON?) wasn't going to allow slash because "Tolkien wouldn't have approved." And even though I wans't a slasher or indeed out at the time going 0_o at that pretty hard. It was a pretty strong queers not welcome message.

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[personal profile] sodium_amytal 2019-01-27 08:50 pm (UTC)(link)
This is such a good post, thank you for writing it! ♥

I'm so upset by how fandom has radicalized and become so eager to censor anything deemed remotely threatening or "uncomfy." I grew up when fandom was "anything goes," and that was so freeing for me, to be able to write about anything and not be attacked for it. Even when I was attacked over my content, it didn't come with the heavy bludgeon of being called a pedophile or abuse apologist or any of the bullshit they're throwing out now. I can't imagine what it must be like to be a young person in fandom these days.

Did I just compare Tumblr SJ to Scientology/ Yeah, I did, sue me
YOU'RE RIGHT AND YOU SHOULD SAY IT. Tumblr SJ is a cult and no one can change my mind.
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[personal profile] muccamukk 2019-01-27 09:36 pm (UTC)(link)
I think this is a really good breakdown (also in from thisweekmeta, hi!)

The one thing I think you didn't cover as much, though you did reference it, was how amazing an affirming being in one of those filter bubbles feels when you're part of the in group. You're so smart, and so cool and all your friends are smart and cool and everything is ON all the time. Especially if everything's happening at the speed of tumblr. So the incentive not to lose the group (which you talked about) is really high. A lot of isolated teens have never been part of a group that's that strong and feels that fun.
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[personal profile] ithiliana 2019-01-27 10:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Also here from [community profile] thisweekmeta--and think, with others, this is a great post although I think (as noted above) that there were some anti/censoring elements within fandom from, the start of it!). I mentioned the anti-pedophile Tolkien fans, and also remember some very heated discourse around some darkfic and grimdark Tolkien stories (a lot of that bubbled up on anonymous hate memes on LJ back in the day).

I could never get into Tumblr though I tried but heard about it from friends active on DW and Tumblr--I wonder if there were some features of how that site worked that facilitated the growth/spread of such behaviors (even before the Tumblr purge).

I really liked your analysis of how certain types of warning posts metatasized--that makes a great deal of sense.
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[personal profile] independence1776 2019-01-28 12:45 am (UTC)(link)
also remember some very heated discourse around some darkfic and grimdark Tolkien stories (a lot of that bubbled up on anonymous hate memes on LJ back in the day).

I didn't know that wank existed! Because my memories of Tolkien darkfic was that it was wonderfully easy to find and likely rated lower than we'd rate now.

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[personal profile] dragoness_e 2019-01-28 12:22 am (UTC)(link)
There are important phrases to learn when dealing with bratty children throwing temper tantrums, which is what these antis really are:

* "I don't care"
* "No."
* "Bite me"
* "I still don't care"
* "Sounds like a personal problem"
* "I'm not your therapist or your mom"
* "Still no."
* "Did you read the part about me not caring?"
* "You're an asshole, why should I care what you think?"
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[personal profile] keiliss 2019-01-29 12:29 am (UTC)(link)
"I'm not your therapist or your mom" This, yes!! Well said :D
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[personal profile] la_dissonance 2019-01-29 07:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Also here from [community profile] thisweekmeta - I've read a fair amount of meta about the rise of the current incarnation of fandom antis (thanks, comment section!) and this was really insightful on some points I haven't seen elsewhere. Specifically the mechanism by which the warped social justice logic make playing oppression olympics literally the only way to win arguments. Y i k e s.

Like a lot of commenters here, I came to fandom during an Anything Goes era, and am grateful for it. But I'm frustrated about how antis using this rhetoric is going to (and probably already has) make it that much harder to have discussions about how fandom as a whole can perpetuate or reinforce larger societal problems like racism or homophobia. There are ways that fans can do fandom that cause real harm - look at all the examples of homophobia and early 2000s slash fandom in this one comment section - but it feels like trying to talk about that now would get lost in all the noise about age gaps and multishipping. Or worse, get mistaken for more of the same, to the point where we don't have any good language left to talk about actual social justice.

Maybe I'm being too pessimistic. Anti energy seems to be largely focused on individual, "impure" fanworks or tropes, rather than larger systemic problems. But the language they use makes it sound like they're fighting systemic issues, and that worries me.
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[personal profile] honigfrosch 2019-01-30 06:43 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm a bit late to the party (also here via [community profile] thisweekmeta), but I'd like to give your comment a +1. My active days in fandom are pretty much over, but if I were to read as much as I used to in the current fandom climate and encountered, say, a fic with lots of transphobic tropes (that would hit me rather directly in the face, because I'm trans) I know I'd be much less likely to speak up about it, because I'd expect getting labelled just "one of those antis". And I'm not pretending that discussions about racism, sexism, homo- or transphobia present in fandom and/or fic used to be a walk in the park, far from it. But they felt different to me.

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[personal profile] frogfarm 2019-01-30 02:57 pm (UTC)(link)
All I can think is to be thankful I only write for fun, instead of relying on it for a living.
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[personal profile] meridian_rose 2019-02-01 12:00 pm (UTC)(link)
In the sense you can give it up for a time/permanently or that it's separate from your life in a way that getting hate mail as, say, JKR, would be? I can see your point. However outside of a few genuinely horrifying incidents mostly targeted at anime creators it's mostly fanfic authors and artists who are getting the brunt of the anti behaviour. It's come up a lot in discussions that antis don't get a petition up or all write letters to the producers of the 'bad shows' but rather dogpile on someone for writing a fic with a 'bad pairing' even if that pairing is canon.

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[personal profile] meridian_rose 2019-02-01 12:13 pm (UTC)(link)
The goal is to isolate the (usually young and inexperienced) individuals and make them socially and emotionally dependent on the anti community, to the point where they don't dare question anything, for fear of ostracism or outright targeted harassment. Yes, and it is cult-like to suppress any discussion or dissension!

I definitely didn't see wank on LJ/DW on the scale seen at Tumblr but then I was late to seeing the wank on Tumblr until it started to bleed into my fandoms and I got blocked for suggesting that saying 'make you want' shouldn't be followed by 'except x y z' especially when the definition of x is now beyond all reasonable interpretations.

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[personal profile] monsterqueers 2019-02-18 05:58 pm (UTC)(link)
This was a good read!!
I wholeheartedly agree. I was in a lot of fandoms that were 60-90% antis on tumblr and OH BOY were they the cultiest, most abusive group id ever had the misfortune to be tangled with.

I think that another thing that added to the creation of this(though I don't think its Responsible), believe it or not, was tumblr fictionkin(d) culture.
I'll back up a second and explain; on tumblr, misinformation is spread very easily, and due to this, the original meaning and communities of 'otherkin(d) and fictionkin(d) were changed from a serious, personal identity often related to ones spiritual beliefs and kept VERY separate from fandom into this,,, smeared mess of 'if you relate a lot to a character you can '''kin them''' and this makes your ship opinions more valid' Which is.... Not how any of that works in the slightest, but I digress.

This out-of-control Aesthetic Label they decided to appropriate was then picked up and used as a bludgeon in tumblrs fictionkin tags, kids substituting fictionkin labels for personalities getting into massive wank fights that never would have been tolerated in literally any other other/fictionkin(d) community. Frequently sj jargon was thrown around like 'you can't have a past life as this alien because according to google translate they have a Persian last name and you're white and that's appropriation!!1'.

Vent blogs were made, and posts like 'I'm very uncomfortable with x ship because my feelings from my past life as x bleed over so I avoid those sections of the fandom' turned into 'Don't ship ME with y person its nasty and sexual harassment!'
Im not sure if the original people who did that were anti-kin trolls trying to do more damage or they were just swerfs trying to find new ways to hurt people but either way about 2015 or so marked a huge shift in fictionkin circles on tumblr from 'whatever in any past life is fine were all having a weird spiritual experience together and constantly striving to make sense of it' to 'Im kin with x to cope(which I decided after about 2 days after seeing the character) and if you ship them with y you are shipping me, a real life minor with their abuser this is hurting real people and if your kin memories of being y in a 'past life' say you were the same age in your timeline you are an evil pedo apologist at best and you will get a callout post about it'.

This started mixing with fandom in a way that fictionkin culture NEVER mixed with fandom before, as a person with a past life closely mirroring fictional media whos been lurking in 'kin' spaces for a good 8 years, it was horrifying to watch, as people bothered fandom creators so much to do things like their past life which is 'the only True way listen to meeeeeeee', as anti blogs picked up urls like 'irl-goku-against-shippers' and used fictionkin(d) as a shield for their (often self-admitted)roleplaying.

There emerged this culture that you had to treat the characters like real people because they Were Now Actually Real People. This encouraged the people aggressively roleplaying a spiritual belief they don't actually hold for brownie points and the lulz to do it MORE because they were winning their ship war by acting this way(and the actual fictionkind with fandom motives were encouraged to be wild assholes and throw away every courtesy we had and practiced when in fandom spaces for Years to further their own ship wank) and it seemed that nearly 70% of any fictionkin tag was purity ship wank by 2016. By that point I couldn't handle the little tin anti cults fusing with the wolfpack cult tactics of certain spiritually abusive otherkin circles and the straight up trolls maliciously sowing discord anymore and and mostly stopped interacting with tumblr fictionkind circles.

Like again, I don't think it is a major reason why antis got so big like the other stuff you mentioned, but it certainly seemed to contribute to the culture they have about treating lines on a page like real people.
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[personal profile] amberite 2019-02-20 07:39 am (UTC)(link)
This is a very nuanced take and matches with my observations.

There's a thing I've been noticing for a while now where agents provocateur (in the fictionkin case, usually people from 4chan) show up and behave horribly in a subculture, and then some of the members of that subculture who don't yet have their own strong ethical reasoning and/or follow the standards of behavior set by the people around them start emulating the agents provocateur and things get bad. I'm pretty sure that was a big part of what went wrong with Tumblr fictionkin circles. I also see this happen in serious political activist circles and it's just as terrible.

(...Not that otherkin spirituality isn't serious, either- but in the past, at least, its highly personal and decentralized nature has limited the blast radius of these tactics, until Tumblr and its junk-propagation engine.)
Edited 2019-02-20 07:43 (UTC)

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[personal profile] shadowhive 2019-02-20 06:54 pm (UTC)(link)
I got linked to this through someone else’s post today and yeah, you are so right. Like you I love incest ships and yet trying to find content on tumblr has become harder and harder. The anti’s tag their hate so whenever I searched for Waycest (one of my fav ships) it got to the point that 8/10 posts were hate and only 2/10 were content. As such I’ve largely stopped using tumblr mostly (the whole environment there is just toxic)

A few weeks ago I saw someone on twitter asking for waycest fic. I checked out their twitter and, after seeing they posted a bunch of Waycest art I figured the request was genuine, so I linked them a few fics that I liked... and then got a barrage of hate messages. Most were along the lines of ‘why do you ship that it’s disgusting?’ Which got parroted continually even when I questioned them why it mattered. I ended up blocking a load of people as a result (and got harassment from anons on curious cat, calling me disgusting and ugly etc).

Unfortunately it seems that this behaviour is becoming more and more commonplace, effecting virtually every fandom like a virus. It’s awful and I hate it. Just yesterday I heard that someone had been harassed (including with death threats) because of a survey they did about anti culture (for Voltron I think). I don’t understand how this behaviour is in any way ok, how we went from letting people like what they want to this insanity. It’s a shame that it’s happening and I just hope it dies out (as unlikely as that seems)
marshv: (johnny)

[personal profile] marshv 2019-04-07 06:26 am (UTC)(link)
Not only that but it’s a double whammy—incest AND RPF, which tumblr has suddenly decided is bad despite it existing as far back as the 60s with early Star Trek fans. I can’t imagine how difficult it is to find content for something like that. I don’t do waycest much, but I do do RPF. And I’ve essentially given up on tumblr for that. Dreamwidth was originally my go-to for brandon content but it seems like it’s died down a lot. The only real place to go anymore is AO3 :/

(late ass response. sorry just saw this linked on twitter)
jamethiel: A hedgehog, partially uncurled and looking adorable (Hedgehog)

[personal profile] jamethiel 2019-02-21 01:56 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I couldn't do fandom on Tumblr because it was just. Awful. What I've found is that fandom is segmented into these small groups and people have become private a lot more.

And speaking of privacy, I think that's the reason that antis won't come to DW, or won't find their tactics successful. You can effectively block people, you can prevent them from accessing your posts, you can lock communities. People will still look for ways to be offended but it's hard to have a leg to stand on when you have to go old school and basically agree to community rules saying "You will find x y and z content here."
vomittz: (Default)

[personal profile] vomittz 2019-02-24 08:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Honestly I think one thing that would be facinating to look into in terms of "why are the psychological reasons this fucking depressing fandom thing has started happening" is the concept of queer ants looking at something they hate, usually a ship or a character and saying "people who ship this / like this character are straight / cis" even when they know damn well that's not true. I've seen the term "gay card taken away" by people in the context of ship hate and it's fucking GALLING.

Sexual and Gender Erasure to fit a narrative is probably one of the more heinous things ants do to me, and it has been said of me, it's appallingly warped thinking and it's terrifying as well as hurtful and damaging like any other instance of erasure.
justbolts: (Default)

[personal profile] justbolts 2019-04-03 06:54 pm (UTC)(link)
saying "people who ship this / like this character are straight / cis" even when they know damn well that's not true

I've seen this around a ton too, and it's literally just to establish who the 'acceptable' targets are. The most recent thing is targeted rejection and mockery of "fujoshis", which are always categorized as exclusively straight women who treat male/male relationships as a fetish, but indiscriminately sweep up swaths of queer and nonbinary people in the process.
sanguinifex: Photo of Sanguinifex in a black floral shirt. (Default)

[personal profile] sanguinifex 2019-03-30 11:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Good post! Yeah, the whole "prioritize experiences" thing that SJ has just assumes that people won't lie or manipulate for their own ends, and that's just not how people work. Abusers will exploit any system, and a system that doesn't at least try to account for that can't work--and this one certainly didn't. "Trust, but verify" would have been a better starting point, as would be separating personal feelings from larger-scale problems.

(Anonymous) 2019-04-04 06:57 am (UTC)(link)
The thing is, this isn't just a fandom Tumblr thing. Tumblr does this to everything - uses this guise of SJ and oppression Olympics (a phrase I can't stand, but is the only thing that seems to fit) to silence, harass, or bully people with dissenting opinions from whatever the cause du jour is. It's not just white supremacists and nazis. It's feminists who aren't feminist in exactly the right way. It's people who try to correct misinformation that has been adopted by the community as truth. It's like the ideas of social justice got to tumblr and turned into an evangelical religion where there is no room for nuance, disagreement, or thoughts outside the group, without being painted as somehow evil or deserving of violence and harassment. It's horrifying.

I've given up posting anything more controversial than a cat meme there, because one never knows what could attract the mob.
kencana: (Pandora Hearts // Jack)

[personal profile] kencana 2019-04-05 08:59 pm (UTC)(link)
It's sad that people care much about FICTIONAL characters rather than real people. I've seen straight teenage girl calling a gay man pedo because he ship a 18 years old man with 24 years old man. Their logic is that they want to protect gay man... by attacking a real life gay man. V/oltron fandom also harassing a man and his family over shipping.

I wish they spend their energy to help and donate actual LGBT / women artist. But nope, instead they spend their time illegally download manga and later send death threat because to the author even though the Japanese author already put a warning "warning : rape. gore" *sigh*

(Anonymous) 2019-04-07 01:20 am (UTC)(link)
another thing i think contributes to the spillover of "sj rhetoric getting coopted to bully individual people with instead of using it against systemic inequality like what it's supposed to be used for" is how common it is for hyper-conservative fundamentalist christians and chanboard trolls to sneak into tumblr communities of gullible gay kids and teach them bigoted ideology dressed up in sj buzzwords. the kids are too young and trusting to realize that they're getting snowed and wind up wholeheartedly believing what they get taught, and then they go disseminate those ideas.

lesbian communities on tumblr and twitter are preyed on by terfs like this a lot (it's easy to convince young teens traumatized by unwanted interactions with predatory men that men are inherently/biologically evil and then get them to start attacking trans women and bi women) esp because the terfs will come in quoting feminists from the '70s political lesbianism movement. the "anti-fujoshi" discourse was originally motivated by terfs claiming that trans men are ~Really just fujoshis trying to larp as gay men~. there's a whole article on the whole "internet queers are all pedophiles!" anti line here (https://www.them.us/story/behind-the-weird-internet-scheme-to-associate-pedophiles-with-the-lgbtq-community).

basically some of this shit that antis like to fling around comes from malicious people sneaking into sj communities and actively encouraging them to destroy themselves via infighting to neutralize them, and then that spills into fandom spaces too because tumblr and twitter's design puts all the website content in one place regardless of topic.
muttthecowcat: mutt in a cowboy hat (Default)

[personal profile] muttthecowcat 2019-04-07 02:48 am (UTC)(link)
This is a good summary post I think. One thing I've noticed about the anti community is that most of them aren't truly engaged in any communities/series. They seem to focus on the current "new big thing" and once the hype dies down, they don't stick around long. In both of my most recent fandoms, the antis only stuck around for the first few months, right when the series were at their peak in activity. I'm a fic writer, so I tend to stick around much longer. Now I only occasionally see the random post at most once a month about something negative and it's normally a legit complaint within the community itself, not an anti post.

So I guess what I'm getting at is that antis are fans of the anti community before anything else. They seem to focus their attacks on the most popular communities where they will get the most attention without actually engaging/producing content/consuming content in them.
muttthecowcat: mutt in a cowboy hat (Default)

[personal profile] muttthecowcat 2019-04-07 02:52 am (UTC)(link)
Also I see people on here discussing PF after the tumblr meltdown. Since the fallout, I've noticed a lot of people who really like tumblr have stuck with it. I haven't seen much anti activity on pf, so far, albeit I do have several tags blocked on there. Wild posts don't go viral so easily on pf as they do on tumblr and the environment seems more focused on creators right now, so I'm actually hopeful that it works to limit the potential for abuse/for well meaning posts to get derailed
sonofgodzilla: (Default)

[personal profile] sonofgodzilla 2019-10-19 11:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Admiral Motti! Poor Admiral Motti! I'm outraged! Who will stand up for our fictional Imperial space war criminals now? :p :p :p

This is a fascinating read, thank you. I feel that the internet over the past years with its obsession with "real" identity and authenticity has marred everything that the system was to begin with - certainly *not* revealing my identity, not having my real name plastered over a million social network platforms was super important for me as a teen in allowing me to begin talking about the decades long of process of exactly how and when I was going to come out.

I should probably lay my bias on the table though: I am a big supporter of Death of the Author excepting scenarios where you can leverage that idea of knowledge of the author to challenge the reader (re: Crash by J.G. Ballard) and this obsession, this panic that criminals are on the internet writing fanfiction about their twisted desires is simply just a knee-jerk reaction from companies who continually have failed to monetise such use of the internet and thus engage in riling up baby boomers with no understanding of such things in order to demonise this content (re: Mumsnet).

I don't know. I wanted to make a point but really all I'm doing is leaving my own rant here in your comments, sorry!
sabotabby: cat flag from ofmd with the caption be gay do crime (our flag means death)

[personal profile] sabotabby 2022-04-14 11:53 am (UTC)(link)
Here via a link.

This is epic. I'm not really involved in fandom spaces anymore but I catch snippets of the Discourse through friends and it's. Something. I am grateful to be a Fandom Old and having been most active during the YKINMK era. (And I never even wrote particularly problematic stuff—I just appreciate that people were allowed to do so without having to out themselves as a survivor who is "allowed" to write darkfic because they're exploring their trauma, etc.)

I wonder about the linkages to this phenomenon and the current far-right discourse against queer and particularly trans people. I am seeing a lot of the same vocabulary and dynamics recycled, with very fragile tenderqueer types starting to sound a helluva lot like the monsters pushing Don't Say Gay bills in the US. In particular, the accusations that people who write things they don't like are "pedophiles" or "groomers," which is the modern-day equivalent of calling someone a Satanist or whatever.

I try not to be a conspiracy-minded person but it's made me wonder if anti accounts that belong to younger, marginalized people are in fact...not that. It would be a very silly and pointless bot/disinfo campaign but given what I see on Twitter around kink at Pride discourse, it's not a wholly useless one. Though I think it is more likely that these younger people are influenced by what is happening in their schools and having been told all their lives that their sexuality is so degenerate it cannot even be spoken about, and not having had the opportunity to just be queer in a normal way.

[personal profile] draculard 2022-04-14 03:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I am seeing a lot of the same vocabulary and dynamics recycled, with very fragile tenderqueer types starting to sound a helluva lot like the monsters pushing Don't Say Gay bills in the US.

In particular! Last night I caught a snippet of Christian radio on my way to the store. It was so anti-type that it felt surreal. Not a word-for-word quote, but the essence, as I remember it: "STDs in America have been on the rise for a steady seven years now. Don't you think that has something to do with the fact that we're teaching kindergartners about transgenderism? How could it NOT be linked?" Personally, I've run into antis who said that because I write fics about rough, lubeless sex, I must be having the same IRL, and because I'm having the same IRL, I must be riddled with STIs (specifically HIV). At the same time, the fact that this rough, lubeless smut is available on AO3, where any fifth grader could stumble across it, means I'm both miseducating and grooming children...

The grooming arguments made by DeSantis and others (Ohio is following suit) calls back to the Satanic Panic era, where of course many of the targets were either gay or rumored to be ... and we see the same rhetoric, the same logic, in antis.

I think your last paragraph is especially poignant. There's been a worldwide backlash against LGBT+ rights (trans rights in particular), and the current tumblr antis have been brewing in that backlash culture for their most formative years. This, too, might be one of the reasons we've seen such a boom of conservative queer teens/young adults on TikTok.

(no subject)

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